Transcript of interview by Andrea Mitchell with Secretary Of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano

10:09 A.M. EDT, Tuesday, April 27, 2010

Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee

• Subject: Oversight of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)

• Chaired by: Senator Patrick J. Leahy (d-vt)

• Witness: Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano

226 Dirksen Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C.

Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
Madame Secretary, welcome. 

Sec. Napolitano: Thank you. 

Sen. Graham: You've got one of the toughest jobs in America. You're dealing with so many issues. And I would argue there's no more challenging issue facing America than immigration reform. Would you agree with that? 

Sec. Napolitano: I would say it was among the top issues, yes, indeed. 

Sen. Graham: Having been involved in trying to find a solution in the past, I can assure you it is difficult politics, but here's where I've come down on this issue. I think 70 percent of Americans are in the camp that illegal immigrants need to be fairly and firmly dealt with, and fairly and firmly doesn't mean massed arrest. 
Do you believe we can put 12 million people in jail? 

Sec. Napolitano: No. 

Sen. Graham: Nor do I. And I believe that's not a required solution. 
Do you believe that we're going to deport 12 million people? 

Sec. Napolitano: No. 

Sen. Graham: I don't believe that's going to happen either. And I would say to -- what Senator Sessions said: All of us kind of looked the other way as long as the labor needs were being met. After 9/11, illegal immigration takes on a different flavor. It's not about people helping our economy; it's about broken systems that could lead to attacks on the country. 

Isn't it true that the -- all the hijackers -- 9/11 hijackers didn't come across the southern border; they overstayed their visas? 

Sec. Napolitano: I believe that to be true. 

Sen. Graham: And isn't it also true that one hijacker had, I think, up to 18 or 19 multiple drivers licenses that were faked? 

Sec. Napolitano: I would have to double-check. 

Sen. Graham: Just say yes, because I know I'm right on that point. 

Sec. Napolitano: It sounds like -- it sounds like you're asking me -- (inaudible) -- question. 

Sen. Graham: (Laughs.) Yeah, yeah. Just go along with me here for a while, because I can prove what I'm saying on this. And the point of the matter is that there is two problems in America: an unsecured southern border and a visa system that is completely broken. 
And do you agree with me that the worst thing we could do is bring up immigration reform and it crash and burn politically? 

Sec. Napolitano: You know, Senator, I think that, as you and I have discussed and I've discussed with other members of the committee, the administration looks forward to taking up immigration comprehensively and dealing with the visa issues, the enforcement issues, the worker issues. 

Sen. Graham: Yes, and so do I. I look forward to it. 
Do we have 60 votes to bring up comprehensive immigration reform between now and November? Are there 60 United States senators ready to deal with this issue between now and November? 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, I am not going to presume to put my -- myself in the place of counting votes of -- 

Sen. Graham: Well, the only reason I would suggest that we need to know is because it's important. Somebody needs to talk to Senator -- Republicans. But Nelson, Lincoln, Webb, Baucus, Byrd, McCaskill, Tester, Dorgan, Conrad, Pryor and Bingaman, some of these people voted no in 2007. And I'm not saying they were wrong to vote no. I'm saying that the 2007 bill would not pass. Do you agree with that? 

Sec. Napolitano: As you state the question, I would give you a tentative yes. 

Sen. Graham: I would bet everything I own that the answer is this 2007 bill will not pass. And you agree with that or not? 

Sec. Napolitano: I will bet you everything I own that the Congress needs to take up immigration reform, because it's not going to go away. 

Sen. Graham: Yes, ma'am. It won't go away. But I bet you everything I own, if you bring it up in this environment, not having done anything that is going to reassure the American public that we won't have 20 million more, that you're going to crash and burn, and that -- immigration comes up this year, it is absolutely devastating to the future of this issue. 
And the southern border is not only not secure, there's a war in Mexico that's bleeding over to America. The mayor of Juarez has moved out of his city and he's living in the United States. And I think most Americans think we will have lost our mind if we move forward without securing the border. Because the biggest change between 2007 and now is that there is a war in Mexico threatening the Mexicangovernment that also threatens people who live along the border. And your state of Arizona is made up a lot of good people. You would agree with that? 

Sec. Napolitano: Absolutely. 

Sen. Graham: Well, look what good people will do when they're under siege. 
What happened in Arizona is that good people are so afraid of an out- of-control border that they had to resort to a law that I think is unconstitutional, it doesn't represent the best way forward, and it is impossible for me and any other serious Democrat to get this body to move forward until we prove to the American people we can secure our borders. And quite frankly, Madame Secretary, we got a long way to go. But once we get there, comprehensive reform should come up, will come up, and I believe we can do it by 2012, if we're smart and we address the big elephant in the room, and that is that our borders are broken, and there's a war going on that's going to affect the future of this issue until we get that solved. 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, may I respond to that? 

Sen. Graham: Please. 

Sec. Napolitano: And I say this as -- again, as someone who has -- I've walked that border, I've ridden that border, I've flown it, I've driven it. I know that border, I think, as well as anyone. 

Sen. Graham: Do you think it's secure?

Sec. Napolitano: And I will tell you it is as secure now as it has ever been -- 

Sen. Graham: My question -- 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, please, let me answer the question. 

Sen. Graham: Yes, please. 

Sec. Napolitano: Every marker, every milepost that has been laid down by the Congress in terms of number of agents, deployment of technology, construction of fencing and the like has already either been completed or is within a hair's breadth of being completed. And one of the questions I think we need to talk about is whether securing the border is ever going to be reached before the Congress -- in the sense of the Congress, or whether that goalpost is just going to keep moving. 
And I also believe that we need to communicate better with the American people -- 

Sen. Graham: Yes. I totally agree with that. 

Sec. Napolitano: -- all that the Congress has already done along the border. It is a very different border now. 

Sen. Graham: I totally agree with that. 

Sec. Napolitano: You know, six, seven years ago, the number of illegal apprehensions -- 

Sen. Graham: Yes. Right. 

Sec. Napolitano: -- in the Tucson sector of the border was over 600,000. Now it's 200 -- too many, I agree. 

Sen. Graham: Yeah. Right. 

Sec. Napolitano: But the securing-the-border aspect has moved forward. And the issue then is, will CIR move forward? 

Sen. Graham: Yeah, well, would you sort of -- under the law that we tried to pass in 2007, it required border-state 
governors to say that the border was secure along their border, their state border. Knowing what you know about Arizona -- and Mr. Chairman, if you'd indulge me a little bit, I'd appreciate a little more time -- would you say -- would you certify that the Arizona border is secure? 

Sec. Napolitano: If I were the -- if I were asked that question now in this position -- first of all, it's an unfair question, and that's why the board of governors didn't want to -- 

Sen. Graham: If that is an unfair question -- 

Sec. Napolitano: Well, let me finish my answer. 

Sen. Graham: -- then it would be news to the people of the United States and Arizona. If it's unfair to ask a simple question, "Is the border secure?", then we're never going to have the confidence to get it secure, because it is a fair question. And I'll give you my answer. I don't think it is. 
I think since last effort to solve immigration, the border security's deteriorated. Along with your best efforts, there's more to be done. And there's a war going on. And you can't ignore the fact that the border is more dangerous because of the war in Mexico, which requires more action, not less. So I -- 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator -- 

Sen. Graham: Okay, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator Graham, let me, if I might -- 

Sen. Graham: Please. 

Sec. Napolitano: Look, let me respond to the way I heard the question. 

Sen. Graham: Okay. 

Sec. Napolitano: Maybe you were answering a different question. 

Sen. Graham: Okay. 

Sec. Napolitano: What I would say is that we need to continue with all of our efforts to secure the border. And the numbers are better than they have ever been. But that doesn't mean we stop and that there's not more progress to be done. 
But I would also suggest, sir, I would also say that the passage of laws like that at the state level illustrate the need for Congress to move ahead on CIR. 

Sen. Graham: Yeah. And I agree with you. And I'll end this. The chairman's right. 
Here's my view. I think the border is less secure because the circumstances in Mexico make it less secure. You've done some good things. A lot more needs to be done. 
For anybody who's watching this issue, who wants relief in the Hispanic community, you deserve it. But the last thing that can ever happen, in my view, to get that relief, is to bring up a bill where there is no hope of it passing. In this environment, there is no hope of it passing. Let's get this environment corrected on border security, move forward in a comprehensive fashion, secure the border, protect America and be fair to the 12 million people, but also be firm that we're never going to have 20 million more in the future. That's the winning combination. 

Sen. Whitehouse: I thank my colleagues for allowing Senator Graham the extra time. 

Sen. Graham: I thank you. 

Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX): Madame Secretary, I know you share my concern with the escalating drug violence in Mexico. And by the way, I appreciate your reaching out and calling me and giving me some insight into your meetings with the secretary of State and others. 

I was very impressed by the high-level nature of that delegation, which I think speaks to the seriousness with which the challenges the Mexican is having, from the cartels, threatens not only their safety and security but ours as well. 
I think most Americans would be shocked to learn that there have been about 23,000 people killed inMexico since 2006. And there is a war going on, as you know, and I worry that the Mexican government may not be poised to win that war. I support the Merida Initiative, which I know you support and are responsible for implementation in large part. But I worry that what we're doing is not turning this direction of the escalating violence around, and there's more that we need to do. 

I went to El Paso on Friday, and had a good briefing from all the federal authorities there which was very informative. But one of the things that I learned there is that there is -- there are substantial spillover effects into the United States, and particularly into El Paso. For example, Silvestre Reyes, the congressman from -- who represents that district, has written to the president, citing 150 victims of violence in Ciudad Juarez, who have been paroled across into the United States and hospitalized there and completed. 

So it's in -- it's with a -- sort of an eye to all of this that I want to ask you specifically about Predators, unmanned aerial vehicles, and other assets which we can deploy to help provide intelligence and other assets that could be used not only by the United States to secure our border, but by the Mexicangovernment to defeat the cartels. 
My understanding is the border with Mexico -- and as I understand, none of those Predators are available or are being used by the Border Patrol or Customs and Border Protection in Texas. But specifically, what I was told is that the Federal Aviation Administration has failed to issue a certificate of authorization for the flight of these unmanned aerial vehicles in commercial airspace. And I wonder if you could tell us what the holdup is and what the plan is to fix that, because it seems to me that getting those Predators, those drones available to fly and and provide that intelligence is very important. And the FAA appears to be blocking it at this point. 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, this is an issue pending in the FAA. They have to -- the plain fact of the matter is that the Texas airspace is more crowded than the other airspace that needs to be protected along the border and had more predetermined certifications already in place. And so the FAA now has to go in and carve out, as I understand it, space for the Predator. But that is under way, and we have urged them and said that we would very much like to be able to deploy the Predator there. 

Sen. Cornyn: Well, I know we've been talking about this -- not you and me, but all of us here for some time. And it seems like the delay just keeps extending on and on and on. 
And I would ask for your help to try to expedite this. 
I intend to ask the FAA to come to my office and explain to me what their posture is and why -- what the delay -- why the delay, because I'm very concerned that some of the assets that could be deployed to help not only quell the violence in Mexico but also keep our borders secure are not being deployed because of unnecessary foot- dragging. 

I mentioned the -- some of the spillover effect of the violence in Mexico. I also was advised in some of my meetings in El Paso that there are as many as 20,000, perhaps more, displaced Mexican citizens that are living with relatives and others in El Paso on the U.S. side. Senator Graham mentioned the fact that the mayor of Juarez itself, where 700 people have been killed so far this year, right across the river from El Paso, that the mayor of Juarez lives in El Paso. He lives in the United States because he fears for his own safety and security there. 

And I mentioned the spillover effect in hospitals, but obviously in schools, where children are being registered for public school in the United States in El Paso; obviously the people moving into homes and rental property in order to protect themselves. This is a very, very serious problem, as I know you recognize. And we got to find a way to do more to help Mexico. One last thing -- and to help ourselves. 

One last thing. What kind of cooperation does your department get from the Department of Defense? I'm thinking not just about troops; I'm talking about the assets, niche assets. 
I mentioned unmanned aerial vehicles, other radar -- assets that the United States military has developed in the course of our conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, which could be state-of-the-art technology that could be a big help. 
Could you explain to me what the conversation has been, what kind of cooperation? Or is there no coordination or collaboration or cooperation between DHS and the Department of Defense? 

Sec. Napolitano: Two points, Senator. One is, I think your observation bears repeating, and that is by helping Mexico, we help ourselves, and that particularly our assistance through Merida and other means in this issue on the cartels helps us. These cartels impact us, and that's why we view them as a -- as a homeland-security issue. 
Secondly, we have good cooperation with DOD. As you noted, Secretary Gates was with us when we had the high-level contact group meeting in Mexico City. There are ongoing operational things that are being done, and exchanges of things like technology. So we have very good cooperation there. 

Sen. Cornyn: Well, I again commend you and the administration for treating this so seriously. 
I would just like to respectfully suggest to our chairman and our current chair that it might be good to have all members of the Senate, on a bipartisan basis, briefed in a classified setting on what is going on inMexico, what our United States involvement is. Because, frankly, I think this represents a huge threat not only to Mexico, but also to American citizens, and not just along the border. 
Finally, let me just say that I note that in fiscal year 2009, there were 556,000 apprehensions of people coming across the southern border -- I believe my number is correct -- which is down considerably from its height. 
But I don't think it's anywhere near the point where we can say that our border is secure. 
Would you agree with that? And if you do, what additional resources do you need in order to secure our border? 

Sec. Napolitano: Well, I think we always are working to make the actual physical security of the border more complete. But I would say that not only has significant progress been made but in all of the sectors of the border, you can show that it is better now than it was three years -- two years ago, three years ago, five years ago and the like. 
I think we need to continue to make sure that we sustain the Border Patrol presence, that we continue to look at the technology dollars you have appropriated and make sure they are being deployed in the right way, with the most effective kinds of technologies, and that there will be different technologies in different areas of the border, because of the different terrain involved among other things. 

And that we look at infrastructure in the right way, to deploy infrastructure, and interior enforcement is an important part of the puzzle as well. So it's what we do at the border. It's interior enforcement and how that is done. And that's the package that we are implementing. 

Sen. Cornyn: Well, I look forward to working with you, to making sure you get the resources you need, in order to get the job done. And I appreciate your commitment to that objective. 
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask unanimous consent that three letters be made part of the record. One is from the Honorable Silvestre Reyes to the president of the United States dated March the 28th. 
And then two other letters from the University Medical Center of El Paso dated March the 16th and April the 16th that all pertain to the spillover effects of the ongoing cartel-related violence in Juarez into El Paso. 

Sen. Arlen Specter (D-PA): Without objection, they will be made a part of the record. 
Thank you, Senator Cornyn. 

Sen. Specter: The issue as to what has happened in Arizona has caused a great deal of concern in many quarters. And I know that President Obama has been anxious to move ahead on immigration reform. 
We came very close in 2006 when both houses passed bills. The Senate passed a comprehensive bill. The House bill focused only on border protection. And we could not get a conference convened, and nothing happened. 
And now Arizona has legislated in a way which has drawn a lot of questions and a lot of criticism. The impact of what the law contains could be very, very serious in terms of what happens, with relations between the Hispanic community and the people who are so heavily pressing on enforcement measures which may be unconstitutional. 
On their face, they appear to have that significant risk, racial profiling. 
You, of course, have intimate knowledge there, having been governor two terms. How serious is it, as a matter of race relations in Arizona And the temper of the community, that the federal government move ahead to legislate -- to impose appropriate standards, contrasted with what the Arizona law has? 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, in my view, one of the motivations behind the Arizona law was frustration with the perception that Congress was not moving on this issue at all and that the state would have to move in the absence of congressional movement. 

I know the president is very interested in reaching for -- for a -- excuse me, a bipartisan consensus to see if we can move an immigration bill through. Senator Graham expressed some doubts as to whether there were 60 votes in the Senate for that. But I think the message sent from Arizona was that movement needs to occur, that this issue should not be allowed to languish. 

Sen. Specter: Madame Secretary, to what extent is there a concern about civil unrest with what may occur with the enforcement of this law? 

Sec. Napolitano: I think there are a lot of issues. 
If this law goes into effect -- and again, the effective date's not till 90 days after the session ends -- but if it goes into effect, I think there are a lot of questions about what the real impacts on the street will be. 

Sen. Specter: Absolutely. 

Sec. Napolitano: And they are unanswerable right now. 

Sen. Specter: My state has a considerable Latino -- Hispanic population. And I hear a lot of concern, a lot of anger. And when you start getting really tough, with the high-handed tactics which can be -- which are authorized by this law, and the racial profiling, it puts added stress on Congress. 

We have been derelict, flatly derelict, in not acting up till now. And those who search for 60 votes might find it easier to locate them in the face of that kind of a -- that kind of a problem. So I'm interested in what you think about it, because you know the temper down there a lot better than the -- those of us who have only been inside the Beltway. 

Sec. Napolitano: Well, Senator, I really appreciate -- I think there is a lot of cause for concern in a lot of ways on this bill and what its impacts would be if it is to actually go into effect. And I think it signals once again a frustration with the failure of the Congress to move. 

I will work with any member of the Congress, and have been working with several members of the Congress on actual language about what a bipartisan bill could and should contain. 

Sen. Specter: What can the federal government do, Madame Secretary, to deal with the potential for racial profiling and other unconstitutional aspects of the Arizona law, short of superseding it? 

Sec. Napolitano: Well, I think the Department of Justice, Senator, is actually looking at the law, as to whether it is susceptible to challenge, either facially or later on as applied, under several different legal theories. And I, quite frankly, don't know what the status of their thinking is right now. 

Sen. Specter: Shifting to the issue of our overall relations with Mexico, we passed NAFTA, over a lot of concerns and over a lot of objections. And the thought was expressed at the time that to stimulate economic development and prosperity and the raising of the standard of living in Mexico would be very beneficial to the United States; might -- would limit immigration -- limit illegal immigration; could have an impact on the drug wars, which are ferocious. 
How helpful has NAFTA been, Madame Secretary? You've been very -- very close to it. Aside from it being better than it might have been, has it had any real significant effect on improving the situation in Mexico, so that we were looking for that collateral benefit in the United States? 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, I believe that NAFTA has had some beneficial impacts, but I also believe that the Mexican economy still has not created the number of jobs that it needs to create overall. So that we still must be aware not just of illegal immigration, but jobs that are created by the drug cartels themselves -- including the production of drugs, not just the trafficking in drugs. 

So again, it's very important for us, I believe, to work closely with Mexico. They are the number one or two trading partner of 22 states of the United States. And so, to the extent that their economy and our economies have trade and other relationships ongoing, that needs to be an important part of our dialogue. 

Sen. Specter: There's no doubt that NAFTA has benefitted Mexico. Has NAFTA benefitted the United States? 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, I believe it has, in the sense that it has added to the trade and commerce inMexico, and that relates to jobs within the United States itself. 

Sen. Specter: Do you think economically it's a net plus for the United States? 

Sec. Napolitano: I would -- I would say, Senator, that I check numbers -- in part, because it's hard to say how the recession and the global recession has affected everything. But I can say that it would be a lot worse without NAFTA. 

Sen. Specter: Well, no doubt, it would be a lot worse without it. But the question looms, and there is still a lot of undercurrent of dissatisfaction with NAFTA from the start. And then the question arises as to what extent it has benefitted the United States economically. And then the collateral question: Has it really helped Mexico on the other items which we had hoped for, the drug war, the border migration, et cetera? 

Sec. Napolitano: Senator, you know, some of these questions might better be addressed to some of my colleagues on the economic side. But let me tell you, on the security side and on the cooperation and the need to be able to work closely with Mexican federal law enforcement, that relationship right now is as strong as I've ever seen it. 

Sen. Specter: Thank you very much, Madame Secretary. We appreciate your being here and staying so long, and seeing so many senators come and go. Thank you.